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Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

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Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  nimanoe » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:48 pm

In the AoC community we’ve used the Round Robin Stage a lot. But in my opinion it has a lot of flaws and I think it’s time to try some other methods. I’ve watched quite a bit of Counterstrike and there they mainly use two systems: the GSL system (based on StarCraft I believe) and the Swiss system. I’ll explain the systems quickly for the people who don’t know how the systems work. I'll mostly be using the situation that there are 16 players/teams and half of them will qualify for the Knockout stage, since it's a situation that has happened multiple times and for all systems it's a great scenario (Swiss system won't work nearly as well if there are less than 16 players/teams).

Round Robin:
Quite an easy system, usually the players/teams are divided in groups of 4, but bigger groups are also possible. Every player/team plays the other players/teams in their group. There are a few different scoring systems, usually it’s decided by the amount of games won, but sometimes (like in Nations Cup) the players/teams get points for winning, drawing or losing a series. If there is a draw, it’s still decided by the amount of games won.

GSL system:
[Show] Spoiler: GSL System explained:
GSLsystem.PNG
GSLsystem.PNG (85.46 KiB) Viewed 1478 times
In the GSL system you’ll have groups of 4 players/teams which are seeded. The first seed will play the last seed in the first match-up, while the second and third seed will play each other at the same time. The winners of this match-up will then play against each other and the losers will do the same. The winner of the winners match-up is then qualified as first place of the group and the loser of the losers match-up is eliminated as last place of the group. Finally the loser of the winners match-up and the winner of the losers match-up play against each other to decide who will qualify as the second place and who will place third of the group.

Swiss system:
[Show] Spoiler: Swiss System explained
swisssystem.png
swisssystem.png (92.31 KiB) Viewed 1478 times
This system is occasionally used already, but not to its full potential in my opinion. To fully make use of this system, you need 16 players/teams or any multiplication of that (so 32 or 64 players/teams). Then ideally you would seed them and let the first seed play against the 9th seed, while the second seed plays the 10th seed etc. Then every player/team that won will only play a player/team that won as well (you can either randomize between these players/teams or use the original seeding again) and every player/team that lost will only play another player/team that lost. Now you’ll have the players/teams divided up into 3 categories: players/teams that won both games, players/teams that won one and lost one and players/teams that lost both match-ups. A player/team in a certain category will only play another player/team in the same category, so a player/team that has lost the first game and won the second will be able to play a player/team that won the first and lost the second.Then the players/teams who won all 3 games are qualified and the players/teams who lost all 3 games are eliminated. Now there are two groups left: the players/teams who won twice and lost once and the players/teams who lost twice and lost once. The players/teams will once again play within their own category and the players/teams with 3 wins will qualify and the players/teams with 3 losses will get eliminated. That leaves only one category: the players/teams with 2 wins and 2 losses. These players/teams will play and the winners will qualify, while the losers are eliminated.

Alternatively you could use the Swiss system, but end it after 3 rounds, so the players/teams with 2 wins and 0 losses as well as the players/teams with 2 wins and 1 loss are qualified to the next stage. This makes the stage 2 weeks shorter, but also makes it a bit more inaccurate.

Now that I’ve explained the systems, let’s look at their advantages and disadvantages.

Round Robin:
Pro’s:
  • You can seed the players/teams by their performance in the group stage.
  • There’s only 3 weeks required in the case of groups of 4 players/teams.
  • Can be used for almost any amount of players/teams.
  • Players/teams aren’t forced to play 1 series per week, but are allowed to play all series in one week.
Cons:
  • The winner can be decided by the third or fourth place. (example: CoT, RiuT taking two games off JorDan, while not taking any from Viper)
  • Players/teams who schedule late get rewarded by less motivated players/teams, since they’re already qualified/eliminated.
  • Not every series has something on the line, especially when the seeding isn’t based on group stage performance.
  • Depending on what scoring system is used, someone who wins every series doesn’t have to be the first place (example: CoT, JorDan won vs everyone, but didn't get first place).

GSL system:
Pro’s:
  • Almost every series has something on the line (either to qualify or get eliminated).
  • The players/teams who qualify can get seeded into two different groups.
  • There’s only 3 weeks required in the case of groups of 4 players/teams.
  • After the initial match-ups, the other match-ups should be really close.
Cons:
  • Players/teams are forced to play 1 series per week, however, the first and last place only have to play 2 series.
  • Can only be used for multiplications of 4 players/teams.
  • Since every series is important, AWs can really screw up the placings.

Swiss System:
Pro’s:
  • After the initial match-ups, the other match-ups should be really close.
  • You can seed the players/teams by their performance in the Swiss system (how fast they qualified, how many games they dropped etc.)
  • Initial seeding isn't as important, since after the first round players/teams will be seeded on their performance, not on their seedings.
Cons:
  • Can ideally only be used for multiplications of 16 players/teams.
  • Goes on for 3-5 weeks, depending how fast you qualify/get eliminated.
  • AWs can really screw with this system as well.
  • Who you have to play can be really random, unless the initial seeding is used or the players/teams are reseeded.

First of all, there have been quite a few improvements on the Round Robin system already (for example 3 points per win and 1 point for a draw like in Nations Cup), but it's still quite flawed. Personally, I'd really like to see the GSL system tried out, since it makes up for some of the flaws of the Round Robin system. The Swiss system can be nice as well, but it can be a bit more luck-based and sensitive to AWs, so I'd prefer not to have it for big tournaments like Nations Cup.

Which system do you like to see? Did I miss some system you'd like to see used? Please comment below!

PS: If this isn't the correct place, the mods can move it, but I wasn't able to add attachments in General AoC Discussion :(
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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  angelina_jolie » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:39 pm

We used swiss method in dutch tourneys! It is fun for both low level players and high level players! U will play after 1 game already vs ur own level! It gives way more games aswell!
Then best 4 have only 2 more players played in the end! ^^
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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  SiFly » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:03 pm

The swiss system works great for larger tournaments. I've played some Hearthstone tournaments in the past with 128/256 players. Making people play a couple of rounds in the swiss system and just starting a main event with the top X allows you to quickly get rid of a lot of players without doing any seeding. It involves some luck with opponents but it's a great low effort way of getting through a first stage.
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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  nimanoe » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:04 pm

  03 Aug 2017, 14:39 GMT » angelina_jolie wrote:
We used swiss method in dutch tourneys! It is fun for both low level players and high level players! U will play after 1 game already vs ur own level! It gives way more games aswell!
Then best 4 have only 2 more players played in the end! ^^

The Swiss system I described is slightly different than the way we played it in the dutch cup, since the way we used it in the dutch cup was to get top 4 players out of 19 teams, so players played other players who had a different record than them as well. If there are 16 teams that won't happen, so it's more fair. This system also stops once teams have reached 3 wins instead of going on for a set amount (in case of the dutch cup 7 rounds), so they won't have to play lower rated players once they've played all highest placed players.
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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  speer141 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:11 pm

next dutch tournament this belgian will sweep all 8-) 8-) 8-) :lol:

swiss system looked nice and EZ to understand.
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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  angelina_jolie » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:11 pm

  03 Aug 2017, 15:11 GMT » speer141 wrote:
next dutch tournament this belgian will sweep all 8-) 8-) 8-) :lol:

swiss system looked nice and EZ to understand.



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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  SiFly » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:41 pm

  03 Aug 2017, 15:11 GMT » speer141 wrote:
next dutch tournament this belgian will sweep all 8-) 8-) 8-) :lol:

swiss system looked nice and EZ to understand.


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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  patao » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:35 pm

GSL system looks super nice to me :clap: nice idea to bring it up. I hope the next major tournament tries it
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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  TheViper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:58 pm

Always wanted to see the GSL format in AOE2.
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Re: Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Postby  thepitzaboy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:29 am

Is there a comparison of total games(for tournament completion) per system by total # of players?
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