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[KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  Dirkjan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:59 pm

But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  klavskisLV » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:05 pm

  19 Dec 2017, 14:59 GMT » Dirkjan wrote:
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.

Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  Dirkjan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:16 pm

  klavskisLV wrote:
  19 Dec 2017, 14:59 GMT » Dirkjan wrote:
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.

Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap


I dont know if I understand you correctly but the fact that one player is able to win most of the big tournaments over the last years means that the better player wins you games and tournaments, and not the map.
Im just gonna spam some random thought here, but what would be cool: take a group of 2.2k+ players, and let them decide for each game in KOTD who had the better map. Then check who actually won the map :D
civwin and skill level bias are partially normalized by the number of games played.
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  Moonspring » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:18 pm

Liereyy just made a mistake by walling his ranges (& vills building them) too late. Nothing to do with the map. Civ wins are legit wins, it's part of the game to pick the right civs. This wasnt random civs. Liereyy's biggest weakness is late game raiding. He sometimes notices it way too late. Overall I think Viper has better map awareness, Liereyy better micro (sick skirm war, didnt even know it was possible to out micro equal army so badly). I don't see Liereyy taking the number 1 spot any time soon. Maybe he is as talented as Viper (or even better) but Viper has one massive advantage. He is a pro. Liereyy is not. Liereyy has school, Liereyy might even work. AoE2 is a hobby for Liereyy. Viper has other hobbies and is a professional aoe2 player during the day.
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  nimanoe » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:28 pm

  19 Dec 2017, 15:16 GMT » Dirkjan wrote:
  klavskisLV wrote:
  19 Dec 2017, 14:59 GMT » Dirkjan wrote:
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.

Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap


I dont know if I understand you correctly but the fact that one player is able to win most of the big tournaments over the last years means that the better player wins you games and tournaments, and not the map.
Im just gonna spam some random thought here, but what would be cool: take a group of 2.2k+ players, and let them decide for each game in KOTD who had the better map. Then check who actually won the map :D
civwin and skill level bias are partially normalized by the number of games played.


I think you're talking about different things, Klavskis is saying that there are some map generations that are close to unwinnable if the skill level is close enough, not that the map generation decides every game and every tournament.
Because as already mentioned those map wins will get balanced out by playing longer series, so the better player should still win most tournaments. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't "fix" these (close to) unwinnable map generations tho.
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  klavskisLV » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:56 pm

  19 Dec 2017, 15:16 GMT » Dirkjan wrote:
  klavskisLV wrote:
  19 Dec 2017, 14:59 GMT » Dirkjan wrote:
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.

Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap


I dont know if I understand you correctly but the fact that one player is able to win most of the big tournaments over the last years means that the better player wins you games and tournaments, and not the map.
Im just gonna spam some random thought here, but what would be cool: take a group of 2.2k+ players, and let them decide for each game in KOTD who had the better map. Then check who actually won the map :D
civwin and skill level bias are partially normalized by the number of games played.


Well that does not mean that viper hasn't lost a map where map is the deciding factor, and ofc i can't really talk on this as i'm not him, but a good example was his game vs Jordan (Viper was Malay, Jordan was Maya(i think)) and Viper had the worse map possible, impossible to wall thus he just got overrun as his only option was karambits, which he did, so does that mean jordan is a better player? I don't know Does that mean viper wouldve won if he had amazing map? I don't know
But addressing these things could be important, as that is what i'm concerned about, if a lower skill player can win with a map/civ win in a high stakes tournament, that is something to look at in my opinion as we are on the subject.
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  misafeco » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:02 pm

  19 Dec 2017, 15:18 GMT » Moonspring wrote:
Liereyy just made a mistake by walling his ranges (& vills building them) too late. Nothing to do with the map. Civ wins are legit wins, it's part of the game to pick the right civs. This wasnt random civs. Liereyy's biggest weakness is late game raiding. He sometimes notices it way too late. Overall I think Viper has better map awareness, Liereyy better micro (sick skirm war, didnt even know it was possible to out micro equal army so badly). I don't see Liereyy taking the number 1 spot any time soon. Maybe he is as talented as Viper (or even better) but Viper has one massive advantage. He is a pro. Liereyy is not. Liereyy has school, Liereyy might even work. AoE2 is a hobby for Liereyy. Viper has other hobbies and is a professional aoe2 player during the day.

Viper played 786 matches since Apr 7, Liereyy played 697. Not a big difference.
And considering Viper played 213 matches since Nov 1, Liereyy only 78, it's all about last month.

Also it's true that Viper is a professional, but it means he has a lot of other stuff to do, like playing campaigns, viewer matches, uploading videos, managing his channels/social media, etc. I think it's possible to reach his level if someone is talented enough and has 4-5 hours free time per day to play for years. You can say that Liereyy is not much behind based on the final. He just needs more experience and confidence.
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  tdkr » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:21 pm

This old game (specially arabia) played so many times by expert players :D :D that now only map generation decide game result between them .
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  Dirkjan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:38 pm

Can anyone turn Klavs' suggestion into a poll? Sorry Im lazy and aoczone noob :D
Something like: Would you like to see more a more standardized arabia map (less random wood and deer generation or so)
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Re: [KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

Postby  klavskisLV » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:01 pm

  19 Dec 2017, 16:38 GMT » Dirkjan wrote:
Can anyone turn Klavs' suggestion into a poll? Sorry Im lazy and aoczone noob :D
Something like: Would you like to see more a more standardized arabia map (less random wood and deer generation or so)

Dumbest thing you can do is to make a poll like that, because viewers always will like the crazy RNG stuff, and this atm is not about the viewers, but about high stakes 1v1 tournaments and how they play out, you can never make a poll like that and actually expect ppl to say- i want more balanced maps, that shit is never going to happen, because that's just how it is, the more normal approach would be to balance out maps to like 40-60 range(no clue how to do that) and then see what happens, because ofc you don't need 50:50 maps, but 90/10 maps are also quite frustrating
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