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BCC2 Training - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

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BCC2 Training - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  BugA_the_Great » Mon May 10, 2010 6:25 pm

With "Brain Champion Cup 3" almost finished (in a very interesting manner), we revive the history of former season of this epic competition, reminding you of what it takes to come on top, claiming the best player title and a huge money prize.

Once these great games could be found on DeX clan forums, and it was (korea) kkab`s wish not to reupload them anywhere else.

Now, since Dex clan site is no longer available, with kkab`s permission, AoCZone brings you these fine battles once again. Thanks, kkab! :$

Watch the fights that became a part of AoC heritage, and read what this expert player and one of the best AoC strategiest had to say about the games he played with (serbia) _DauT_, helping him to find his way to the BCC2 throne...

p.s. We even wanted to present you the last pack (games 61~71 mentioned in the last post), never posted before, but unfortunately those seem to be lost forever -.-

Table of Contents (click to visit)

Originally posted by L_Clan_Derptus on The Legion Clan forums. (link)

    "After almost 4 months of intense, interesting and dramatic battles we are announcing that BCC2 is oficially OVER!

    The final standings are :

      1. _DauT_
      2. poZ_Tammy
      3. _CyZ_MiLaoShu
      4. _WraTh_
      5. L_Clan_Alive
      6. [EoK]dogao
      7-8. L_Clan_Chris
      7-8. _FJ_psNps

    Congratulations to Daut for winning the tournament and thanx to everyone who paricipated in this great AoC event! Hope to see you all in BCC3!"

Originally posted by (serbia) _DauT_ on The Legion Clan forums. (link)

    "I would like to thank Kkab for all the practice games we have played last month (around 90 and all will be posted soon by kkab), tnx again it was fun and those games improved me a lot!"
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Re: BCC2 Training Games - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  BugA_the_Great » Mon May 10, 2010 6:29 pm

Originally posted by (korea) kkab on DeX Clan forums.
Reposted on AoCZone with kkab`s permission.

download: » Training games - pack 1 (01~10) (1.82 MB)

" I only recently started playing Aoc again on march 10th. Although my studies and work take at least 15 hrs each day, I had an urge to play a few games of aoc. I logged on to IGZ but had trouble finding anyone to play. Luckily, Daut was logged on to msn, so i told to daut please win bbc2 this time. He said, "I will". Then I asked if he wanted to play a few games with me. As a result we started playing these games.

By the way, just so that we are clear -- i always think Daut can be no. 1 in bbc2 without my help. He is enough strong, and had passion and practiced much games. I just happened to be around and played these enjoyable games. It helped me recall my good old memories of AoC. I had previously thought that I knew all about aoc what other experts knew. But these games with Daut showed me that such was not the case, and I learned many things from Daut.

I Stopped playing 1v1 since 2002 when koven went to the army. For a long time I couldn't find 2.2k+ games and it made me bored of 1v1. That’s why i started playing ln teamgames. Teamgames had a different fun element to them. For a very long time I never thought 1v1 was fun anymore. But these games with Daut gave me 1v1 fun feeling again, and i was happy.

Congratulations to daut win bbc2. aoc fan can see how he decide strategy to counter enemies. grunt and halen and koven practiced like it with me old times. but we didnt like upload record. Years ago i made how to 1.6k to 2k with bsk_coolman nick.

This will be similar fun to aoc fans showing how the winner practiced for tournament.

Out of the just over 100 games we played, i have 70 or so records. Sometimes we forgot to record, and other times i didn't bother to upload cause i was at various net cafes. But i tried to save most of the games because i knew aoc fans would love them.

since i have around 70 games i thot i would upload 10 games/week giving some explanation about how we think. i didnt know record explore program. and i show our chat there before game how we think.

it will be too fun.

good bye aoc to me again. :$..

but i will be around there. :$

specially thx to poisn. he trasnfer this writing. :$ he is only one who can understand my english perfact. :$
please dont upload it on other site.

i want upload on only dexclan."
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Re: BCC2 Training Games - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  BugA_the_Great » Mon May 10, 2010 6:32 pm

Originally posted by (korea) kkab on DeX Clan forums.
Reposted on AoCZone with kkab`s permission.

download: » Training games - pack 2 (11~20) (2.02 MB)

"Daut and I played Arabia strictly for the fun of it. Since Arab strats are pretty similar for all the league stage players, we didn’t work on any new strats. Arabia was played for fun, but it did also help to make our hands move much faster.

The first few arena games were strictly booming games. But after many games we felt that booming was not the best answer. 4-5 relics makes your econ stronger than the boomer, cause you can sell gold to buy stone for castles, or to buy food for faster imp age.

When I started to play land nomad, I almost exclusively did a boom strategy, and even if I got a bad civ I could still win almost everytime. But after a while everyone learned how to boom like me or halen, and I had a hard time winning with bad civs. My boom on ln was simply to make 5 or 6 tc and reach imp around 34-35 mins with 3-4 castles and make UUs. But it is sometimes really bad if enemy does the same and has a counter civ – example: I am brits and my enemy is goth.

So, I wanted to have a strategy for other civs, so I developed one that I think works well. You can see it here: (its my lastest strategy in ln.)

This stragey is just reach imp age 3 mins later than boom strat. but can mess up your enemy eco pretty bad.

Concerning arena then, I thot if you can reach imp 3 mins later than enemy on Ln. but u gather the relics in arena. it makes similar or more fast imperial age up than enemy. it would be the best strategy. Of course you still need another strategy to hurt enemy econ, (about gold and stone spot. or small or big speace in wall. and also sometimes it depends on the map.

All castle war is like that with normal eco(however, this does not apply to maps like nomad with many ships, or a resource heavy map like RF

Also, monk and few scouts and siege isn’t too expensive. And the boomer still needs to make 2 buildings or a castle before can reach imperial.
So, we figured if the resources are nearly the same, and taking relics is good for long games, and you get map control. Finally, civs don’t matter very much in arena with this strategy because all civs can make scout, siege and monk.

Good civs have just a little advantage.

For example: huns is better than korean for sure, eco vs eco. but korean has +1 range to siege since castle age, which helps even things out a little.

Now, a boomer needs to be left alone till over 21 mins. If the rusher can touch the boomers eco before this time, it is likely that the boomer will fail/lose. Thats how daut won ding in arena with korean against huns.

I also thought about alive(he was first vs daut.) Alive is also a good player. All league stage player can be top. Alive rated at IGZ is 2.4k+, but when he played daut he played like 2.1k rated.

All players can’t play their best all the time. Alive was in a bit of a slump in the 2nd stage games. I expected Daut can win him then without a problem.

Halen and Grunt used turk fast imperial rush at 2001, 2002(someone would see they used it in tourament). But if I used 5 archery I could defeat them with it. But they used 18-19mins fast imp age up. However, Daut made a stronger eco and a little later imperial age. Therefore my previously tested strategy to defeat turk fast imp failed. Daut also taught me that knights will be good vs them.

Ok, have fun and watch the games. :$"
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Re: BCC2 Training Games - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  BugA_the_Great » Mon May 10, 2010 6:36 pm

Originally posted by (korea) kkab on DeX Clan forums.
Reposted on AoCZone with kkab`s permission.

download: » Training games - pack 3 (21~30) (2.09 MB)

"These practice games were before daut vs dogao match up.

i noticed from the recs that almost everyone was doing 10~15 scout and 20~25 ranger units and 24~26mins castle up in arabia.

And we talked about the differences with dings fast castle in arab. I tried to copy it many times and Daut tried counter it. daut decided much scout and lately archery and little wall is good vs it.

24th record what I died same like Dogao :$

I didnt watch many games how ding played arena, but I noticed that he always went with a boom to imp style, after which he went mainly halberdiers. No one can win expert with halberdier. Why you ask? Because the halberdier is a great unit to make in early imperial because it is too strong for what it costs. Ding always makes it. And if enemy counters with more halberdier ding simply adds in a counter unit (ex: scorpion or archer or heavy knight.)
thats why he loves halber at first time. push and makes enemy eco little bad. and counter it then.

Knowing this, we practiced how to counter it. Also, we tested if enemy counters with monk and siege, because in all visible, enemy can see what u are doing.
On arena(25th, 26th, 27th), daut wanted to know how to counter a spanish rush.. and he wanted practice vs it..:$
i used it one time and told him: monk + monk h/p up+castle+fast imperial will be good.
and we changed civs. and used it. :$

Now, about the 6 vills to berries build order in arabia.

Anycall taught it to me. he really loves i used his new or gay strategy in real game. :$
he really wanted me to test it out vs daut – so I did many times.

With huns, you only need 50 wood for a lumber camp, 75 wood for a mill, and 175 for a barracks. Then, upon reaching feudal, you only need 175 more for an early stable (or range). This is a total of 475 wood.

I could make a lot of food with sheeps villager. If i need more food, I put more vills on sheep. Or if I need more wood, I can send vills to wood. ur villager who is taking sheep in tc is keypoint to balanced wood or berries.

Playing aoc you need to have your resources properly balanced. (example: 11 vills to wood, 4 vills to berry, 6 vills to sheep) A good balanced arrangement can let you do everything you need.
an example.
If you are wondering why relics are so good on arena, its because your vills can work on other duties. If you have 5 relics, 4-5 vills on gold is enough to supply your needs. Your other vills can take wood and food. The effect is like your economy has 120 vills, while in actual fact you might have only 85 "real" villagers.

Further explanation would go like this:
If you have 120 vills, 40 vills to food, 40 vills to wood and 40 vills to gold/stone. But if you have 5 relics, you can have still 40 vills to food and 40 vills to wood and 5 vills to gold (just like the guy with 120 vills) but you only need roughly 85 vills to do an equivalent output. But you havent needed the food to make those extra 35 workers (this is a huge food savings). Arrangement is important on resources.

If you can recall my 5 stable strategy in land nomad, it is the same sort of arrangement logic. I would always do it AFTER 60 vills. (30 farmers, 20 vills to gold) I could upgrade and make full knights. The vills after 60 can go where needed, but they aren't necessary to keep the 5 stables in full use. Its the arrangement of vills and timing that makes the difference here.

In practice game 26(its my first time to tested this build order) my wood is too far, but because I don’t farm and have a good arrangement sending vills faster to wood, it helps eliminate the problem from being overly damaging. thats how i alived till 23mins well. but this build order needs much wood after 23mins.bcuz i needed make re-farm. but i didnt know it. and my all wood gone.. thats why i couldnt make much archer after time.

Let me explain the thinking a little more. If you make 2 farms in dark age, you will need to re-make these farms around 15-16 mins mark. This costs you an additional 150 wood to replant them at such a critical time in the feudal age. This means something has to give. You can’t both make fast h/p up, and fast castle age, because you don’t have the resources to do it all.

Now, with 6 vills to berries you don’t need to make 2 farms in dark. Then you can make 20 farms faster than normal, and it lets you make faster many scouts and fast castle too.
And as an added bonus, if your enemy rushes and towers your berries, its no real loss because you have harvested most of the resources by then.

In the final analysis, the resources between the two builds evens out to be about the same, but 6 vills to berries gives a benefit vs rushers and if your wood is far. If you are short of sheep, you can still make farms in dark then.:$

i tested it still finishes all games vs daut. and my build order changed little more more..:$

ok watch on fun. :$

really thx to poisn to transfer it. i know fix my bad english is really hard. but he never complain for aoc fans even he is really busy and no time.
we all love him. :$"
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Re: BCC2 Training Games - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  BugA_the_Great » Mon May 10, 2010 6:39 pm

Originally posted by (korea) kkab on DeX Clan forums.
Reposted on AoCZone with kkab`s permission.

download: » Training games - pack 4 (31~40) (1.73 MB)

" Many people posted on forums, “Daut isn’t good in DA”. I also worried about it because in the final round it could be crucial to win DA, especially if match score is 3:3 vs Ding. I thought Daut would be in danger if he didn’t practice DA.

DA map is a very untested map in AOC. It is a given that new strategies and new civ choices will emerge over time. I was wondering what would be a good strategy so I asked some friends what they thought about it. One of my good friends (in fact he is one of worst friend to me 11) Ruso told me that a mayans flush would be good. When I reviewed the recorded games from the previous DA games, I noticed that most players reached feudal around the 10-11 mins mark. And when they did reach it, they had not much wood. (If you make gold camp and farms and Rax and Stable and BS, you don’t have much wood left for anything else).

Why do we flush in arabia? Everyone can reach castle age in 15 mins, but if they try that, we can flush the enemy for 3 ? 5 mins and make their eco bad and the result is that they can’t make much knights. So, why wouldn’t the same principle hold in DA? If the enemy tries to fc, you can mess him up and he won’t be able to mass kts, won’t be able to make much farms, etc. I thought it was a good idea for DA, so I told it to Daut. Daut agreed it could be a good idea and so we practiced it.

Just take a look at the DA map. Mayans have cheap stone walls, and DA map has wood and hill, so it’s very easy to make stone walls during feudal age while you are pushing enemy hard. We decided to try to mess up the enemy eco, and then wall the map and go for a fast imp strat. (in 24 mins you should be able to have 4 tcs, a castle and 100hp eagles coming) Games 32 and 33 are Daut’s first two practice games with me on DA map.

Daut told me ding's home map would likely be RF. daut expected ding will be mayans vs him. i thought too. but i wanted practice all of cases. therefore we practiced chinese vs mayans war few games. I watched Ding’s RF game style first and tried to copy it when I played vs. Daut. (games 34 + 35) I felt I did some things wrong and tried to fix it. (you can confirm that in the chat before the start of game 36)

In reference to RF game: ding(chinese) vs chris(mayans), mayans can win china for sure. But with different strategies and civs come different risks. Chinese can win mayans with more resource, not unit power. Mayans can win in imperial, but not likely in castle age. I told Daut to boom like Chinese at first, and only make plumes when you see chokonu attacking you. Chinese choks are slow and weak vs plumes. You can see this in game 37.

You know how I had researched the 6 berries build order in arabia and tested it with Daut.
i complained its not so good to anycall and he modify build order something. i used it(game 38,39)

Ok, have fun.

Well, there is a story behind that story.

After we had played the practice games in pack 4, Daut was fairly confident he could win Ding in DA and RF maps. Then someone uploaded the earlier practice games of me vs Daut. Of course Daut was angry with me, but I told him I sent record to jidba only the first 18 games, so he wasn't too concerned then. He didn't care about the arabia games being posted or the first set of arena games, because it wouldn't reveal too much about what he was planning to do. Everyone told me to only send recs to your friend who you can trust 120% (like Poisn), but Jidba was that trusted to me. That's why all that fiasco with the recs vs daut happened and everyone got on my case."
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Re: BCC2 Training Games - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  BugA_the_Great » Mon May 10, 2010 6:41 pm

Originally posted by (korea) kkab on DeX Clan forums.
Reposted on AoCZone with kkab`s permission.

download: » Training games - pack 5 (41~50) (2.19 MB)

"The training during these games was geared towards practicing for the matchup between Tim and Daut. Tim and Ding were the toughest competition for daut, therefore I thought a lot about their style and researched their recorded games. Daut and I talked about strategy quite a bit. During these games I tried to copy Tim’s style.

From what I can tell, most Chinese players have only 2 styles of play in Arabia. Either they rush, or they wall and fc. Very seldom do you see them play full out feudal warfare like me and daut. Because of this, I tried to either rush of wall+fc, and Daut tried to counter it. (A good example is Game 46, and compare with Tim vs Alive in bcc2 – note map well, compare uptime and strategy between me and Tim)

With Aztec war you need to understand the map well, as well as having good infantry micro, and a lot of experience. Everyone knows daut is an Aztec monster, so we didn’t need to practice it because Daut can handle anyone on this setting already.

Tim used brits on Baltic one time in league stage, so we tried one game for daut to figure out how to get up fast. (game 42)

Daut had already decided how to fux chinese with mayans in pack 4. I had watched Tim Regicide recs and it seemed to me he didn’t have much experience playing it. On the other hand, Daut is one of the most experienced players of Regicide and he also practiced a lot with me, so I didn’t worry about the Regicide game vs Tim. This doesn’t mean I don’t think Tim isn’t good (all League stage players ARE good), its just that Daut seems More good.

Because Ding likes to imp before his enemy, and go for early hard push with army and rams, I expected he would play mayans similar to how he plays Chinese (make few plumes and then fast imp). I thought that perhaps instead he might just try a fast imp and castle push as well. So, I tried to play like that, and Daut adjusted his play and decided on a counter strategy.

I had watched all the players Arena games because it is an important map to win (two points available). I felt most players didn’t understand how to exploit arena strategy. At this time, its too early in arena strategy development to say that Daut’s strategy is best (there will develop more civ specific strategies over time), but as I explained in Pack 1, Daut’s style gave him an advantage to go beyond the base civ advantage, and I was confident his style would work vs all the league stage players. My only concern was that others would learn and use Daut’s style for themselves, but since Daut had a lot more experience using it, I felt he would still be in good shape.

i am really sorry that upload record late.

my old brother married last weekend. i was soooo tired..

thx for transfer poisn.

have fun.

p.s : although daut and I practiced around 100 games, I forgot to record sometimes, or didn’t collect them so I only have 71 recs in total."
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Re: BCC2 Training Games - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  BugA_the_Great » Mon May 10, 2010 6:44 pm

Originally posted by (korea) kkab on DeX Clan forums.
Reposted on AoCZone with kkab`s permission.

download: » Training games - pack 6 (51~60) (1.76 MB)

" This last batch of games (50~71) were in preparation for daut's match vs ding.

At this point, my 1 month holiday was finished, and i was back to working and studying double full time.
I had played enough games and although it was fun, I had had enough. AoC is fun but its not the same feeling as it was in the past.

Years ago I had fun playing aoc 20+ games everyday, but its not like that now.
During my 1 month holiday I did have a lot of fun playing aoc, but once my holiday was done, I didn't really want to play aoc anymore because study and work makes me soooooo tired.

Playing aoc while working and studying, I have to skip dinner and lose sleep time (so I slept maybe 5 hrs each night only)

The sole reason I kept playing was because I wanted to see Daut reach #1 spot.

Daut is another me, so i tried to help him.
No food and no sleep were so sux to me, but my pleasure of playing and helping daut was enough to offset it.

Daut and I practiced almost 80 games up to this point.
That experience helped us decide all our strategy already.
Therefore we didn't need to research any more good strategy,
and we didn't have enough time to make new and better strategies either.
Also, because we had played a certain style, we didn't want to change that either, at this late stage of the tourney.

Daut hadn't settled on a home map vs ding.

He was debating doing with a byz war, but Ruso advised to go with a baltic persian war.

I had noticed that all byz players went skirm at first, so I figured m@a will work as counter, but it failed in game 53.

About baltic persian war.

Persian fast up is so good if both do gally war.

bcuz persian dock works fast.

and you get a resource advantage.

but its only for gally rush.

i dont like all in one strategy.

it is risky because it needs some luck to be sure.

if enemy doesnt make a dock and does a fc,
and then makes some fast fire ships to kill fishers, it can be deadly.

bcuz persian has age up adventage. so fast castle up than other civs.

and persian makes vils fast. so can make good eco.

and if feudal player goes archer rush, persian castle age guy can go kts (+2 bonus attack)

I wasn't really in good condition during these final games,
My micro was poor and I couldn't balance my eco at all.
Notice in one game I don't even move my 3 fire ships.

I am sure that if daut uses the same strategy as opponent, or a good econ strategy, he can't lose vs any player in bcc2
This is simply because his play was in top condition.

Knowing this, I advised daut: "dont try for an easy win with a risky strategy. You are best without it."
and daut agreed with that advise

and so he ended up choosing byz war vs ding in bcc2 match.

we know how to fux turkish fast imp push. so i tried uniq units push.
but my eco and strategy was so sux with bad condition.
and daut doesn't like to use uu with turk.

i always give and talk my opinion and tips. daut listens, but then decides whether to follow the advise or not

i have trained with many players. and some takes all my advice.
or someone takes only what he needs or agree.

grunt and daut likes that. thats why they r top in my opinion.
they didnt play for me. they play for them.

of cuz grunt and daut too gave tips to me. and i take or not.

it makes oneself style. and i believe that is what makes a player really good.

58,59,60 game is vs ding on da.

we tried all of situation about huns vs mayans.

we expected

1. ding will be fc with few wall + tower. and makes knight or c/a

2. ding will be fc with few skir +tower and c/a

3. ding will be make 2 stable and full up scout.

4. ding will be flush same.

daut practiced for flush.

it means daut has better build order for it. and more experienced.
therefore i dont care no 4.(4. ding will be flush same.)

and we checked how fc guy resource is going. and we made more good situations.

have fun all.

sorry uploaded too late.

i am really **** busy and tired. T_T

thx for transfer poisn. :$"
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Re: BCC2 Training - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  CondoM » Tue May 11, 2010 1:07 am

:D Thanks for posting up the posts to go along with them, I already had the recs but I've wanted the posts for a while.
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Re: BCC2 Training - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  insecticide » Tue May 11, 2010 6:59 am

thx buga, i am glad to see special DeX Clan recs here :). actually, there is one more pack. kkab and me forgot about it. we should remind him that last pack :)
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Re: BCC2 Training - Korea kkab versus _DauT_ Serbia

Postby  _Jago_ » Tue May 11, 2010 7:05 am

Thx :) Good Job
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