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Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  kw1k000000 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:05 pm

  10 Nov 2017, 11:14 GMT » scripter64 wrote:
Since Escape event streams are based on recs, couldn't the games be played on Voobly and broadcast later without it? The only issue there would be the lack of an advanced spec overlay, but there are various stat views that can be switched through on the score display with the F4 key or the stat button above the minimap. Just a random thought lol


Whether they show it or not the recorded games would still need to played using Voobly hence usage of Voobly can not be avoided. As per current policy Voobly is not allowing its usage for "commercial" purposes.
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  DreamingFighter » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:09 pm

  10 Nov 2017, 11:14 GMT » scripter64 wrote:
Since Escape event streams are based on recs, couldn't the games be played on Voobly and broadcast later without it? The only issue there would be the lack of an advanced spec overlay, but there are various stat views that can be switched through on the score display with the F4 key or the stat button above the minimap. Just a random thought lol


It violates Voobly's terms of agreement so it might get EscapeAoE into trouble later.
Also, it would piss off Voobly people, which should be avoided at all cost considering it is the best AoE 2 client at this moment.
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  ZeroEmpires » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:29 pm

  10 Nov 2017, 13:05 GMT » kw1k000000 wrote:
  10 Nov 2017, 11:14 GMT » scripter64 wrote:
Since Escape event streams are based on recs, couldn't the games be played on Voobly and broadcast later without it? The only issue there would be the lack of an advanced spec overlay, but there are various stat views that can be switched through on the score display with the F4 key or the stat button above the minimap. Just a random thought lol


Whether they show it or not the recorded games would still need to played using Voobly hence usage of Voobly can not be avoided. As per current policy Voobly is not allowing its usage for "commercial" purposes.


This isn't true, recs can be played back offline. There just isn't a spec overlay that works for offline yet. Maybe next time.
For what it's worth, you could easily (I think) use gameranger to match two players together with userpatch and wololokingdoms installed, directIP is an option too. Once we have an overlay for offline rec viewing then Voobly doesn't even need to be used and everyone can still play using wololokingdoms and userpatch.

(With userpatch, wololokingdoms and offline spec overlay; all of which are free third party tools, the only thing needed is a method of matchmaking players into the lobby. Which is what Voobly essentially is, but there are also alternatives.)

Honestly, Voobly could co-operate but they are blocking us. So we will find an alternate way to make it work. Our intention was to use wololokingdoms since the start as it's clearly better for the players.
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  scripter64 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:56 pm

Is there any chance of a "corporate deal" between Escape and Voobly? I think this would be the best case scenario for everyone and I'm curious if any communication has been going on or if it's entirely non-negotiable. If it is negotiable, what are the blocking conditions? Would something like "ZeroEmpires presents Masters Regicide sponsored by Escape Gaming" streamed on your personal channel work like Nation's Cup sponsored by SY?

Although it's possible to create a separate matchmaking service, I think that's likely one of the least important functions of Voobly these days. I think the reasons many people prefer Voobly over GR, etc. today include the mod support, unlimited spectators, hosted recs and history, and most importantly the anti-cheat, which would be the hardest part to replicate and the most vital for a platform running money tournaments.

Although the anti-cheat definitely can't catch everything, it can limit a lot of situations up to and including stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tl8AjDfnBk (Viper commentary is amazing lol). Without any anti-cheat, less blatant forms of cheating like "player spec overlays" and map hacks to see through the fog are much easier to use and almost impossible to decisively take action against without false positives, which is a serious problem for tournament integrity.
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  Tarzan » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:17 pm

Damn it, this week-end is also the Rocket League World Championship :(.
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  ZeroEmpires » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:43 pm

  10 Nov 2017, 19:56 GMT » scripter64 wrote:
Is there any chance of a "corporate deal" between Escape and Voobly? I think this would be the best case scenario for everyone and I'm curious if any communication has been going on or if it's entirely non-negotiable. If it is negotiable, what are the blocking conditions? Would something like "ZeroEmpires presents Masters Regicide sponsored by Escape Gaming" streamed on your personal channel work like Nation's Cup sponsored by SY?


This doesn't work for a few reasons, namely that revenue generated through my personal stream is marked as income to me as an individual. I would then have to pay tax on this and it messes with my personal finances etc. I can't then "donate" that revenue to Escape Gaming, and basically it gets messy and complicated from there.
So far as we've been able to figure out the blocking condition is: "Escape Gaming is a Company", there's no way around that. The bottom line is that we are sponsoring tournaments (no funding from Msft this time), we had the intention to use wololokingdoms and voobly which would have been a benefit for the publicity of both things. But ultimately Voobly are saying we can't use the platform "commercially" while ignoring the fact that nearly every streamer is earning money from Twitch by using the voobly platform to find, play and spectate games.

Of course we're also not going to commit to a full-blown partnership with Voobly because we are actually in a unique position that Microsoft has and will continue to give us prize-pools for future tournaments. It's fairly obvious why we want to keep some kind of neutrality when approaching this. I certainly don't want to lose opportunities for future funding, LANs and all that good stuff.

As for Escape being a company, that's basically the only way we would have been able to secure over $20,000 in prize-pools for 2017. Microsoft aren't going to approach that in any other way, they certainly wouldn't bank transfer that cash to an individual.
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  scripter64 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:40 pm

Oh, did they say that directly in response to an attempt by you to negotiate for this particular event, or do you mean that the no-commercial thing is just their general rule and no attempt to negotiate for this particular event has occurred yet?

"Apparently Escape is "commercial" and that's the main issue, only it doesn't really hold up because over 100% of the "profit" that Escape has made has gone back into hosting more events. That means our own personal money has been paid into prize pools as well." Is the method of using your own personal money mentioned here (instead of donating back to Escape) not possible for events going forward? Is the stream the only source of revenue? Maybe Escape could offer some non-game-related stuff for additional revenue, like merchandise or maybe capture exclusive interviews with the players in the days before their games are played (so you/staff don't have to worry about their game scheduling) and stream those on Escape before/after each match or something. In that way, Escape can send viewers to ZeroEmpires for game coverage and back to Escape for other content like news anchors do for on-scene coverage. No need to answer any of this, by the way, I'm sorry for all the random questions, just trying to understand lol

The problem is basically that standard UP direct IP or GR, etc. only has very limited protection against certain categories of cheats. The same applies to HD, as they aren't using the VAC anti-cheat or any other form of protection. I just think it would be best to ensure that these kinds of money tournaments aren't compromised by hacks and every possible consideration is made in the interest of the players, you, and your investors' money. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done if the will to negotiate a solution and compromise is not there.

Edit: oh, you've added more detail, thanks! So, it was either a deal with Microsoft or a deal with Voobly and the deal with Microsoft made more sense for you. I suppose that would be the best business decision.
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  ZeroEmpires » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:03 am

  10 Nov 2017, 21:40 GMT » scripter64 wrote:
Oh, did they say that directly in response to an attempt by you to negotiate for this particular event, or do you mean that the no-commercial thing is just their general rule and no attempt to negotiate for this particular event has occurred yet?


Robo has spoken to Voobly extensively regarding this tournament, we can't seem to get anywhere.

  10 Nov 2017, 21:40 GMT » scripter64 wrote:
Is the method of using your own personal money mentioned here (instead of donating back to Escape) not possible for events going forward? Is the stream the only source of revenue? Maybe Escape could offer some non-game-related stuff for additional revenue, like merchandise or maybe capture exclusive interviews with the players in the days before their games are played (so you/staff don't have to worry about their game scheduling) and stream those on Escape before/after each match or something. In that way, Escape can send viewers to ZeroEmpires for game coverage and back to Escape for other content like news anchors do for on-scene coverage. No need to answer any of this, by the way, I'm sorry for all the random questions, just trying to understand lol


I don't want to have money going through me as an individual, that defeats the purpose of having a company to handle payments and processing and taxes. What if the revenue pushes me into a higher tax bracket? Then I would be losing out horribly for my own personal income after revenue is paid forward one way or another.

  10 Nov 2017, 21:40 GMT » scripter64 wrote:
The problem is basically that standard UP direct IP or GR, etc. only has very limited protection against certain categories of cheats. The same applies to HD, as they aren't using the VAC anti-cheat or any other form of protection. I just think it would be best to ensure that these kinds of money tournaments aren't compromised by hacks and every possible consideration is made in the interest of the players, you, and your investors' money. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done if the will to negotiate a solution and compromise is not there.


Voobly anti-cheat works against blatant cheats sure, but if someone wants to cheat then they can; it's still possible. Voobly does nothing to protect against monk macros for example, but if someone wanted to do more than that then they can (map hacks etc). We have an honourable and high integrity player base at high levels, it's not worth it for a player to be exposed as a cheater, and it would become fairly obvious if someone was. This is an issue with basically all eSports

Do you think it would be useful to make a custom .exe version of the game with changed offsets that would be used exclusively for non-voobly userpatch Escape events, to prevent possible cheating methods from working?
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  scripter64 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:33 am

There are some anti-cheat measures in standard UP, but they aren't anywhere near as comprehensive as the Voobly anti-cheat. UP alone wouldn't be able to detect multiple categories of cheats that Voobly can. Macros are an industry-wide issue and they affect standard UP, HD, and Voobly the same as other games like PUBG (a solution is being researched to mitigate them, at the moment), but macros are primarily useful for aoc in only very select game situations. For example, accumulating the number of monks needed for the convert macro to become useful in 1v1 open map Arabia is typically unlikely. However, a persistent onscreen player spec overlay that gives you real-time information about tech activity, etc. is game changing, undetectable from a rec, and readily available on HD.

The solution can never be perfect, but I think the best effort possible should be made to ensure the integrity of tournaments for both the enjoyment of the players and those who generously support these events with their time and money like you. All things considered, between the corporate issues, taxes, sponsorship deals, and everything, it seems this problem may not be easily solved, which is unfortunate for the players, who are kind of caught in the middle lol
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Re: Escape Gaming Masters Regicide Edition

Postby  mogers87 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:23 pm

Loved watching Cloud playing. Hope to see him again in future tournaments!

Looking forward for day 2 :)
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