Problems registering at AoCZone?
You can try resending activation email. If that doesnt work you can send an email here. If you forgot your password click here.
 Main Menu

 ForumsSearch »

 King of the Desert

 Masters of Arena 5

 Escape Gaming

 Polaris Series

 AoC Recorded Games

 AoE2HD Recorded Games

 AoFE Recorded Games

 Major Past Tournaments

 Users currently online
Members (23)
»  _KAMI
Guests (56)

 AoC Clans Add yours »

 Links

 Auto downloadedFind »

 Ads

Swordsmen infantry needs improvements in AoFE

Take part in AoFE discussions, share strategies and gaming experience
Advertisement from Google 
 

Swordsmen infantry needs improvements in AoFE

Postby  Philippe le Bon » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:40 pm

EDIT: I change the improvements overtime. See the official Balance Discussion page 22 to see my new improvements given to infantry ;)


I'll use the Viking example in this thread (since it's my favourite civ, just a personal choice), but it can be perfectly replaced by any Infantry civ such as Goths, Teutons or Japanese.



Vikings were a top notch land civilisation back in AOK, but now in AOC they are a mid-tier one and they can't compete with Huns/Celts/Aztecs/Mayas/Mongols on land maps with pro players.
The explanation is simple as ****:

Vikings are an infantry civilisation, all their offensive bonuses on land are only based on infantry, and since AOC barracks-line swordmen are UNDERPOWERED cause of Archery and Cavalry massive buffs:

=> Thumb Ring tech, who reduce Archers rate of fire from 2.04 to 1.73 and Cavalry Archers from 2.04 to 1.84
=> Parthian Tactics for cav archers, +1/+2 armor and bonus vs. Spearmen-line
=> Bloodlines which gives a huge +20 HP to all mounted units (even cav archers), and make the civs who recieve that their knights as good as frankish ones, slight difference only for Cavalier and Paladin

And what buff recieve infantry in AOC? +1 pierce armor, lol.


That makes swordman infantry only good to make eight things which they don't even excel at:

- Kill Spearman-line (but archery-line does it quicker)
- Kill Skirmisher-line (but cavalry-line does it quicker)
- Kill Eagle Warriors, with the +6 hidden bonus of Champs vs Eagles (but heavy cavalry does it slightly quicker due to their speed)
- Kill Huskarls (but heavy cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Rams/Onagers (but cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Monks (but Light Cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Buildings, eg Champs get a +3 bonus vs buildings (but Rams does it quicker)
- Kill Light Cavalry (but Spearmen-line does it quicker, and the Byzantine champion can't kill a fully upgraded 118 HP Mongol Hussar, the only exception. Elite Maygar Huszar also can be killed only by Japanese and Viking Champion)


For the rest they get ****, even most of the fully upgraded Heavy Camels in each civ that got them kill Champs in 1v1 (exact same rate of fire by the way, WTF an experienced swordman have the same rate of fire as a defensive anti-cavalry unit?!).



Swordmen infantry need a significant buff, and Vikings will become top notch like the other competitive civs for sure. Cause today even Spearmen-line is more used in most of the games than regular infantry lol, such a shame for this mighty class.
Seriously, who has recently see in their last game a Man-at-Arms rush in Feudal? A Long Swordmen rush in Castle? It's as rare as a Knight Rush from Mayans lol
Myself I don't like archery and cavalry, but I never go M@A rush at feudal unless I'm Celt, since they are very sluggish moving, seriously, why people will go for M@A since Scouts for example got -1 attack but are way faster, have more HP with bloodlines researched, and cost no gold?

Here's my suggestion to make them decent and competitive as a good second-line warforce mixed with elite units like Cavalry/Archery/Siege, more two-leg Knight-like, and it will apply to all the civs:


Infantry, infantry, infantry. It needs to stop to be the ugly duckling of the game, period. It is proved that even with their cost, a perfect eco to support them, and even with a "infantry civilization", they can't face efficiently archery and cavalry which was buff like crazy in AoC (supposing two equal skilled players). in fact it's not bad things if infantry got their little buffs as well, so here they come!
These changes are crucial for the rock-paper-scissor balance of AoF:

- All swordmen infantry strikes per second (Throwing Axemen and Spearmen-line excluded): -10% when Squires is researched, like Knights (2.04 to 1.84). A warrior on foot should at least strike as fast as a mounted one, and not as slow as a **** camel
N.B: The base ROF for Japanese Samurai is 1.94, so their ROF will in theory be 1.746 in Castle Age;
but combinated with the Japanese infantry bonuses, their ROF will be 1.746 - 15% = 1.4841 in Castle Age, and 1.746 - 20% = 1.3968 in Imperial Age

- Long Swordsman and beyond +1 attack (10 LS, 12 2HS, 14 Champ)

- +5 HP Two-Handed Swordmen (60 to 65 HP) to make a more progressive HP staggering: 60 HP LS, 65 HP 2HS, 70 HP Champ

- Likely to Elite Eagle Warriors who get an hidden bonus of +5 (+8) attack against all siege units (rams), all other swordmen infantry created in Castles, or in Barracks (starting at Long Swordsman) get a more modest +3 attack against all siege units
It will end the OPness of mass Siege Onagers against bad heavy cavalry civilizations without Bombard Cannons, Siege Onagers or Longbowmen (so they can't do shit against mass Siege Onagers) which are Vikings and Japanese

- Long Swordsman upgrade -10 seconds, 45 to 35 seconds, like Crossbowman upgrade


It may look OP, but compared to Archery-line and Cavalry-line huge bonuses that AOC get, it just looks VERY reasonable.
With all that shit Vikings will compete on any land map with their infantry for sure, as they get even more HP to their infantry. They will get feared and not mocked as today, with their Imperial Age 90 HP (75 HP + 20% Viking Bonus) Champion.


AOFE needs to restore the rock/paper/scissor balance for swordsmen infantry, it's very important, since I know that infantry is a favourite class of many people in the AOC community, not as much as Knights or Archery, but Infantry-lovers need to have DECENT units to compete with. Plus, it'll restore the natural balance of the game, all the Infantry based civs such as Teutons, Viks, Japs or Goths will have now the potential to compete against the 5 top civs outta here, civs that I listed in my first sentence.
Last but not least, even non-Infantry civilisations such as Britons or Franks can use their Swordsmen-line more efficiently too. The point is: we need a little more infantry in AoFE, more M@A rushes in Feudal, more Longswords rushes in Castle!!

In my opinion, it's the second major balance issue in this game that need to be resolved, behind dark and feudal economical bonuses that need low-tier civlisations to at least compete militarly in the first ages (Koreans, Turks...). But this is an other subject.



P.S: To not make these three bonuses overpowered for Japanese, we need to reduce a bit their rate of fire bonus for infantry: +10% Feudal, +15% Castle, BUT +20% in Imperial. Same % that the Viking HP bonus.
Last edited by  Philippe le Bon on Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 12 times in total.
Image
User avatar
 Philippe le Bon
 
Posts: 4733
Joined: Jul 02, 2013
Location: 傻逼
 1428 (36%)
 
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  PerFusioN » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:56 pm

viks are a navy civ, no more
 PerFusioN
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Apr 04, 2010
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  Philippe le Bon » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:09 pm

They are a infantry and a naval civilisation. They can hold their territory and rush on land very well till early Imp due to their awesome eco bonus. They can also go for fine archery and siege, but they need a little more to compete with top-tier civs.

Even now against Mayans, their fully upgraded heavy scorps slaughter plumed archers (same against Mongols Mangudais btw), and their champs are very effective against their Eagles. Tested and approved. :D
Last edited by  Philippe le Bon on Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
 Philippe le Bon
 
Posts: 4733
Joined: Jul 02, 2013
Location: 傻逼
 1428 (36%)
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  justtesting1234 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:10 pm

  28 Aug 2013, 18:56 GMT » PerFusioN wrote:
viks are a navy civ, no more


then neft their navy
 justtesting1234
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sep 21, 2012
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  TheViper » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:14 pm

A lot of people underestimate the Vikings. They're really good on land until late imperial, they're not one of the civs that would need fixin.
<Tim_ would like to be your friend. Accept the request>

http://twitter.com/TheViperAOC
http://www.twitch.tv/tyrant_theviper
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheViperAOC/
http://www.facebook.com/TheViperAOC
User avatar
 TheViper
Expert Player
 
Posts: 3708
Joined: Jan 31, 2010
 2362 (72%)
 
Advertisement from Google 
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  Philippe le Bon » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:18 pm

And a civilisation which is shitty on water don't have to be shitty on land to compensate.

Eg mayans are top notch on land, but they get fully upgraded Galleons with Shipwright technology available. And their bonus ressources last 20% longer allows them to build lumbercamps less often than other civilisations? plus they get extra gold from gold mines, in short they are awesome on water too.
Image
User avatar
 Philippe le Bon
 
Posts: 4733
Joined: Jul 02, 2013
Location: 傻逼
 1428 (36%)
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  whack » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:23 pm

Vikings are fantastic. As viper said, their land is underrated. They don't have strong cavalry or a super overpowering unit but they do a lot of other things very well. their economy also lets them do the things they are good at faster than others
<AceMaverick> what you did is not possible in the paramters of the game
  TheViper wrote:
When I think more about it, whack is probably best tger to ever walk this planet.
 whack
AoC Legend
 
Posts: 3185
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  Fayt » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:30 pm

Are you trying to suggest infantry should beat cavalry or something? You seem to be missing the overall picture that champs are cheap and are capable of killing non gold units unlike archer which dies to skirm and paladin which in cost dies to halb. Not only that but as Viper said, viks are only weak post imp on land. Their economy bonus lets them have so much speed over other civs, you can do constant 2 stable pump and imp with decent eco 29/30 min np, you can go xbow and imp even faster, you can do everything and be fast. Somehow trying to make them a super civ in imp would make them OP probably.
 Fayt
Top TG player
 
Posts: 2201
Joined: Sep 16, 2010
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  Philippe le Bon » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:33 pm

  28 Aug 2013, 19:14 GMT » TheViper wrote:
A lot of people underestimate the Vikings. They're really good on land until late imperial, they're not one of the civs that would need fixin.


I know, it's my favourite civ I play like half of my games with them. The problem is not Vikings here (agree for the post imperial thing btw), but the Swordmen infantry in the game in general that remain underpowered faced with a LOT of other "elite" units.

My goal here is that the infantry lovers can use infantry more by giving them necessary improvements to use them effictively as a 2nd army line. I don't want infantry to be as good as Heavy Cav in melee battles for sure, but just give them a little something to restore the rock/paper/scissor balance.

+5 HP. +1 attack, -10% ROF. That's not a lot with all these Bloodlines, Thumb ring and Parthian Tactics buffs, and IMO that's just needed.



And Whack, I agree, but considering that Viks use their infantry has a frontline melee battle thing on land maps (backed with heavy scorps/arbalests), contrary to the majority of other civs who uses cavalry, their infantry needs to be beefier to stand the shock. Massing 84 HP Champs with a 17 attack, a slow ROF, and even mixed with pikes is a bit weak against paladins. I mean it.

And again the point is not Viks, Japanese, Goths will get also benefit a lot from that swordmen upgrades.
Image
User avatar
 Philippe le Bon
 
Posts: 4733
Joined: Jul 02, 2013
Location: 傻逼
 1428 (36%)
 

Re: Viks can't compete on land maps 'cause GENERAL balance i

Postby  Philippe le Bon » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:38 pm

  28 Aug 2013, 19:30 GMT » Fayt wrote:
Are you trying to suggest infantry should beat cavalry or something? You seem to be missing the overall picture that champs are cheap and are capable of killing non gold units unlike archer which dies to skirm and paladin which in cost dies to halb. Not only that but as Viper said, viks are only weak post imp on land. Their economy bonus lets them have so much speed over other civs, you can do constant 2 stable pump and imp with decent eco 29/30 min np, you can go xbow and imp even faster, you can do everything and be fast. Somehow trying to make them a super civ in imp would make them OP probably.



Not at all I suggest that thing, just said it in my last post, they are not meant to beat heavy cavalry at all. The point is to make infantry based civs like Viks, Japanese, Teuts, Goths viable against the cream, Mongols, Mayas, Huns, Aztecs and Celts.

And listen to one thing guys: even with these infantry buffs (+1 attack for militia-line, it will make also drushes more effective which I think is great, +5HP 2HS/Champion and -10% ROF like knights), Vikings will NEVER be OP in land cause they lack Halberdier, and can still be beatable with a lot of heavy, or even light cavalry pressure. Stream Hussars in a Viking eco in post-imp = GG.
Image
User avatar
 Philippe le Bon
 
Posts: 4733
Joined: Jul 02, 2013
Location: 傻逼
 1428 (36%)
 
 
Next

Return to General AoFE Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Legend: Global moderators, News posters, Tournament moderators