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Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  _Melkor » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:45 pm

  25 Dec 2017, 04:49 GMT » _Ra_ wrote:
  24 Dec 2017, 21:40 GMT » _Melkor wrote:
Speed would help but ultimately the problem is that they are a terrible combo unit. In castle age you want kt + archer or ew + archer because of the mixture of pierce armour/ high hp and archer units. Long swordsmen have neither, so even if you could convince the ew to stay still and fight, ew + xbow would still win over long sword + xbow.


In 2005-2007 time there were a lot of Celts vs Aztecs games with long swords + mangonel combo dominating.

Micro evolved a lot though, so you might be right

I always thought facing AZtecs with Celts is a walk in the park for Celts...

I can see why long swordsmen and mangenol could theoretically be strong vs meso, however its an incredibly slow and fragile combo that can only work if the opponent wants to fight head on. Just mangenols and crossbowmen would beat that also. Basically if you lose the mangenol protection then the long swordsmen are dead meat.
Nowadays if you played any expert using that tactic they would either run around your base in circles with faster units or micro to kill the mangenols when you arent paying attention.
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Tocaraca » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:32 pm

I can see why long swordsmen and mangenol could theoretically be strong vs meso, however its an incredibly slow and fragile combo that can only work if the opponent wants to fight head on


Couldn't the same logic could apply to Monks+Mangonels, except that's even worse because Monks are even more fragile and micro-intensive than Long Swordsmen?
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  _Melkor » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:38 pm

If we are talking about playing vs meso civs, then monks mangs are a terrible idea and I'm not disputing that. They are slow and fragile and ew completely destroy them. (some exceptions in aztec war when monks have ew support).

Vs non meso civs, the difference is that longswords are terrible vs kts, whereas monks are very strong vs kts. In addition monks with redemption allow automatic wins in a mang war; assuming decent micro.
Tbh I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Tocaraca » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:16 pm

  26 Dec 2017, 17:38 GMT » _Melkor wrote:
If we are talking about playing vs meso civs, then monks mangs are a terrible idea and I'm not disputing that. They are slow and fragile and ew completely destroy them. (some exceptions in aztec war when monks have ew support).

Vs non meso civs, the difference is that longswords are terrible vs kts, whereas monks are very strong vs kts. In addition monks with redemption allow automatic wins in a mang war; assuming decent micro.
Tbh I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.


My point was that, if Monks + Mangonels is good against non-meso civs, then why isn't Long Swordsmen + Mangonels good vs meso civs?
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  _Melkor » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:58 pm

Vs non meso civs, the difference is that longswords are terrible vs kts, whereas monks are very strong vs kts. In addition monks with redemption allow automatic wins in a mang war; assuming decent micro.

In addition monks dont scatter all over the place every time you go back to check the eco.


Against meso this combo cannot die to kts which admittedly makes it seem strong, but long swords can only kill ew and thats it. Any loss of mangenols and its full retreat (in the best of cases). In addition this combo requires every type of resource, and is inefficient economy wise. Aztecs and incas can both research redemption which then allows them both to go full crossbowmen + monk vs longswords and mangenol. Not only is this combo more efficient with the resources it costs but it annihilates longswordsmen. With regard to mayans they can simply make full mangenol + xbow vs mangenol longsword. Or even could just make full mangenol with micro. Tbh all meso civs can pretty easily counter it by just making crossbows and their own mangenols

Monks + mangenols counter kts and archers and basically every unit that gets converted by monks easily. Only counters are light cavalry (which gets countered by adding a few pikemen) and lots of infantry. (which doesn't really work if the monk player does good micro) In general, monks can work very well even if the mangenols die, unless outnumbered by a lot.
For a lot of civs there really isn't any brute force counter to monks and mangeols until the imperial age. This combo cannot be simply countered by crossbowmen mangenol simply because the monks with redemption can convert the mangenols of the opponent player.

In summary the 3 main differences are that:
Monk mangenol can counter practically everything in a brute force battle (excepting LC), whereas longswordsmen mangenols have a few easy brute force counters from meso civs.
Monks can survive by themselves with good micro, whereas longswordsmen by themselves are practically useless.
Monk mangenol is better for the eco than longswordsmen mangenol.
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Carlos Ferdinand » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:57 pm

  26 Dec 2017, 18:16 GMT » Tocaraca wrote:
  26 Dec 2017, 17:38 GMT » _Melkor wrote:
If we are talking about playing vs meso civs, then monks mangs are a terrible idea and I'm not disputing that. They are slow and fragile and ew completely destroy them. (some exceptions in aztec war when monks have ew support).

Vs non meso civs, the difference is that longswords are terrible vs kts, whereas monks are very strong vs kts. In addition monks with redemption allow automatic wins in a mang war; assuming decent micro.
Tbh I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.


My point was that, if Monks + Mangonels is good against non-meso civs, then why isn't Long Swordsmen + Mangonels good vs meso civs?

Because the reason monk/mangonel works so well is because of the range of monks.
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Tocaraca » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:04 am

Claiming that longswords aren't even useful as a counter unit, to what they hard counter, is simply BS. Sure, they cost a lot of food to create and upgrade and also move slowly, and? That's all worth it if you're using them as a counter unit against eagles. If nothing else works (Knights, Crossbowmen) then you need to go longswords. Enough said. They might not work so well if your opponent is going for an even mix of Eagle Warriors and Crossbowmen, but it will work if the opponent is going full Eagle Warriors.
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  GmanStreams » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:19 am

This "toca disagrees with 2k+ vooblies about strategy" thread just keeps on giving LUL
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Philippe le Bon » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:16 am

Long Swordsmen are useless, piece of shit units that can't catch units they are supposed to counter (eagles, camels, lighter infantry...) and are dying against everything else that isn't trash.

They only excel at two things:

1) Disrespec to show dominance;
2) Killing buildings (especially TCs).
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Carlos Ferdinand » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:27 pm

  28 Dec 2017, 00:04 GMT » Tocaraca wrote:
Claiming that longswords aren't even useful as a counter unit, to what they hard counter, is simply BS. Sure, they cost a lot of food to create and upgrade and also move slowly, and? That's all worth it if you're using them as a counter unit against eagles. If nothing else works (Knights, Crossbowmen) then you need to go longswords. Enough said. They might not work so well if your opponent is going for an even mix of Eagle Warriors and Crossbowmen, but it will work if the opponent is going full Eagle Warriors.


Compared to AOC 1.0c what are the improvements Longswordsmen have in this expansion?

Yes vs Eagles, LS works. :)
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