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Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  gmischa » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:02 am

  28 Dec 2017, 19:32 GMT » dogao wrote:
Age of empires is not only theory, try to put your thoughts into your game play and see what happens.

You must be really good for the way you talk though.


play on a pc is for noobs. actual good players like tocaraca play blindfold age of empires just like blindfold chess.
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  TheSerpent_ » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:38 am

  28 Dec 2017, 19:26 GMT » Tocaraca wrote:
No 2k player would be stupid enough to only make eagles once they saw the longswords were being made. They would immediately add crossbowmen and then go on to get an easy win


I don't understand how just making some xbows is an easy win? Xbows only counter longswords once you get a decent mass of them. Xbows need upgrades that are independent of the Eagle Warrior techs; you need Fletching, Bodkin Arrow, and Crossbowman (and a couple of Archery Ranges too) to make xbows effective, which is quite a lot of resources. Then, once the meso player's xbows are seen, you can make Mangonels to counter them. How does Long Swordsmen + Mangonels lose to Eagle Warriors + Crossbowmen? The longswords protecting the Mangonels can kill eagles that come in to snipe the mangos, then the mangos can push away the xbows, right?

I played an incas vs chinese game the other week. I opened with 2 rax eagles and opponent made a lot of m@a to counter. About 2/3 of the way through feudal age I simply switched into archers, and even though we went skirm as well it was too late. So, from my experience, teching into archers after making eagles really isn't a big deal. Besides, you see people change into kts (to counter skirms/mang) after making archers in feudal age. Every strategy obviously has a downside, but simply stating that downside on a forum doesn't mean the strategy is bad. There is a reason you are still 15xx, but, don't fear, another few hundred games on Voobly and you might improve
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Tocaraca » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:57 am

Besides, you see people change into kts (to counter skirms/mang) after making archers in feudal age


That's coz Knights require hardly any upgrades to be good at sniping mangos, and you only need 1 or 2 of them. Xbows need to be sufficiently massed and given upgraded to be good vs longswords.

I opened with 2 rax eagles and opponent made a lot of m@a to counter. About 2/3 of the way through feudal age I simply switched into archers, and even though we went skirm as well it was too late


That's a bit of a different situation. I don't think that massing m@a in feudal age is even necessary at all to deal with feudal eagles. Eagle Scouts aren't OP in feudal age, it's Eagle Warriors in castle age that are OP. Feudal eagles can be killed by massed Archers fairly easily.

What I think is viable vs an opponent going for full eagles is going 2 ranges in feudal age, but after clicking up to castle age, making a Barracks in the back (hidden from the opponent) and massing a bunch of m@a when going up to castle, while still keeping up some Archer pressure. Then, once in castle age, getting the Crossbowman and Bodkin Arrow upgrades, but not committing any more to archers and instead getting inf upgrades, while the opponent obviously gets either Mangonels or Elite Skirmishers to kill your xbows. Then, after getting a significant mass of longswords, moving out and applying lots of pressure. The opponent has to make 2 archery ranges, research Crossbowman, research Fletching, and research Bodkin Arrow, and wait for at least 15 Crossbowmen, and by the time they do all of that, it might be too late, the damage of the longswords will have been done (a mass of them with or even without Arson can park under a TC and take it out in seconds).

Thoughts on why this isn't viable?
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  andreskbr » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:32 am

  29 Dec 2017, 04:57 GMT » Tocaraca wrote:
Besides, you see people change into kts (to counter skirms/mang) after making archers in feudal age


That's coz Knights require hardly any upgrades to be good at sniping mangos, and you only need 1 or 2 of them. Xbows need to be sufficiently massed and given upgraded to be good vs longswords.

I opened with 2 rax eagles and opponent made a lot of m@a to counter. About 2/3 of the way through feudal age I simply switched into archers, and even though we went skirm as well it was too late


That's a bit of a different situation. I don't think that massing m@a in feudal age is even necessary at all to deal with feudal eagles. Eagle Scouts aren't OP in feudal age, it's Eagle Warriors in castle age that are OP. Feudal eagles can be killed by massed Archers fairly easily.

What I think is viable vs an opponent going for full eagles is going 2 ranges in feudal age, but after clicking up to castle age, making a Barracks in the back (hidden from the opponent) and massing a bunch of m@a when going up to castle, while still keeping up some Archer pressure. Then, once in castle age, getting the Crossbowman and Bodkin Arrow upgrades, but not committing any more to archers and instead getting inf upgrades, while the opponent obviously gets either Mangonels or Elite Skirmishers to kill your xbows. Then, after getting a significant mass of longswords, moving out and applying lots of pressure. The opponent has to make 2 archery ranges, research Crossbowman, research Fletching, and research Bodkin Arrow, and wait for at least 15 Crossbowmen, and by the time they do all of that, it might be too late, the damage of the longswords will have been done (a mass of them with or even without Arson can park under a TC and take it out in seconds).

Thoughts on why this isn't viable?


Crossbowmen are way easier to mass than Longswordsmen(gold and wood are easier to gather than food, as farming requires both certain space and wood for farms and mills). You can hold your position with siege defense until you have enough Crossbowmen* to fight. In fact, if you make small walling at your base, you might be able to completely defend yourself without any army other than siege. Build houses and/or palisades and stone defenses in a way your enemy has to pass through tiny channels to reach your economy. That way, you set a trap so you can kill all Longswordsmen whenever the opponent chooses to cross the death passage.
Also, 2 out of 3 meso civs have an Unique Unit with bonus vs infantry. Making LS versus Incas is completely out of question(even EWs die to them, Slingers without ANY upgrade should own LS). Plumed Archers also have bonus vs infantry, but Mayans player could not have enough stone for a castle. Even so, the cheaper archers should be quickly massed(by the way, Bodkin Arrow is not a must vs Longswordsmen; with fletching, xbows still kill LS in 19 hits and are faster than them). The other civ is Aztecs, which have great Monks to defend against LS + siege combo.
On the other hand, your ideas might be useful for this or that civ. Because of cheap and faster created infantry, Goths could go for infantry against EWs(however, I would not recommend going for "Gothic" style against Incas). But I suppose they already go for infantry in Castle Age in most situations(at least I do). Celts and Vikings should counter Eagles with their Unique Unit(in case of Viks, free Hand Cart helps a lot as well), but only against Aztecs(be careful with Plumeds and FEAR the Slingers).
In conclusion, LS should not work against experienced players. If you know all the possibilities his civ provides and some tricks you learn by watching high level games/being killed by those tricks, the guy going for Militia-line should have an overall bad streak doing this strategy. If you disagree, reformulate your ideas or show us online you're right. You might be having decent ideas, but if you blindly defend them without regularly testing them, you can't analyse your thoughts properly and get a proper counter to EWs.

*I'm not sure how you think massing xbows is that difficult. Take in mind the meso player was going eagles, he had already set an economy to gather a lot of gold. Crossbowmen upgrade, Fletching and Bodkin Arrow are all cheap and quickly researched technologies. If you buy time by protecting your economy with a few building walls and taking down unprotected siege with some EWs, you should get way better in the long run.
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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  gamevideo113 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:12 am

Longswords cost too much food. Even if the unit was good (which is not) it is still not sustainable in terms of eco.

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Re: Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

Postby  Tocaraca » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:40 pm

OK so that does make a lot of sense. It also makes me wonder what could be done about the issue.

What's the best strategy to use against eagles in castle age at the moment? Something like Knights + Crossbowmen (the xbows to one-shot eagles and the kts to snipe mangos)? I know Eagle Warriors are regarded as being overpowered, do you think they're still OP in patch 5.7?
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