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Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:19 pm

  14 Feb 2018, 18:40 GMT » Fall wrote:
Thank you, it's rare to find someone who can admit they were wrong. Clearly I misjudged you and I'm sure you can overcome your lack of knowledge about the game given enough time. I'm routing for you bud. :D


That's the power of anecdotal evidence, nobody can refute it! Like the other day I won a game making nothing but Elephant Archers! That means they must be useful right?
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  futhark1 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:13 pm

  13 Feb 2018, 21:38 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
Why is this unit in the game? How can such a shitty unit have been in the game since release yet nothing has ever been done to make it viable? The whole militia line past m@a is pretty bad but this unit is in a category of its own. It's essentially a trash unit that costs gold. Only civ to ever make it is Malay with forced levy but that's only in super late imp when gold coffers are bone dry.

Personally I think they should buff long swordsman (that unit could be the topic of a whole other discussion) and make it upgradeable to champion without having to research 2HS in between. Is there something about this unit I've missed? Is it ever useful?



  14 Feb 2018, 20:19 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
  14 Feb 2018, 18:40 GMT » Fall wrote:
Thank you, it's rare to find someone who can admit they were wrong. Clearly I misjudged you and I'm sure you can overcome your lack of knowledge about the game given enough time. I'm routing for you bud. :D


That's the power of anecdotal evidence, nobody can refute it! Like the other day I won a game making nothing but Elephant Archers! That means they must be useful right?


Wow. Another opionated 15xx who totally knows the game dynamics and does have the adequate game knowledge to judge how bad a certain unit is. He PERSONALLY thinks that there shouldnt be a thing called two handed swordsman inbetween champions and longswordsman.Who cares if some civs dont get champ upgrade and will be basically be stuck with longswords in case they train them? Can you guys not realize how much of importance his personal feelings are?
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:23 pm

  14 Feb 2018, 22:13 GMT » futhark1 wrote:
Wow. Another opionated 15xx who totally knows the game dynamics and does have the adequate game knowledge to judge how bad a certain unit is. He PERSONALLY thinks that there shouldnt be a thing called two handed swordsman inbetween champions and longswordsman.Who cares if some civs dont get champ upgrade and will be basically be stuck with longswords in case they train them? Can you guys not realize how much of importance his personal feelings are?


How about you try to actually refute what I said instead of attacking my person? It's really the lowest form of argumentation, just as the lowest form of evidence is anecdotal. Stop taking your inferiority complexes out on me please.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  futhark1 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:42 pm

  14 Feb 2018, 22:23 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
  14 Feb 2018, 22:13 GMT » futhark1 wrote:
Wow. Another opionated 15xx who totally knows the game dynamics and does have the adequate game knowledge to judge how bad a certain unit is. He PERSONALLY thinks that there shouldnt be a thing called two handed swordsman inbetween champions and longswordsman.Who cares if some civs dont get champ upgrade and will be basically be stuck with longswords in case they train them? Can you guys not realize how much of importance his personal feelings are?


How about you try to actually refute what I said instead of attacking my person? It's really the lowest form of argumentation, just as the lowest form of evidence is anecdotal. Stop taking your inferiority complexes out on me please.


Your issue with two handed swordsman is certainly based on your recent failures in your games, so called anecdotal evidence, so I dont really understand why you're crying about anecdotal evidence. Additionally, I already refuted it but you obviously have forgotten it in your eager accuse people of logical fallacies. Two handed swordsman are simply needed because some civs does not have champions and longswordsman are not good enough. No further explanation is needed. After all, the game dynamics are not made to satisfy your muh-fellings.

The worse part about your logical fallacies :((((((( part is that you accuse me of ad hominem, personal attacks, but that would for example be me saying that you are a retard or you simply suck at this game. But I didnt do that. What I did is that I mentioned some relevant information about your person and made some points in accordance to topic. That's not ad hominem.

And if you think that the people of aoczone have a obligation such as dismissing every witty and weird suggestion, then you're wrong.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  futhark1 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:44 pm

  14 Feb 2018, 22:42 GMT » futhark1 wrote:
  14 Feb 2018, 22:23 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
  14 Feb 2018, 22:13 GMT » futhark1 wrote:
Wow. Another opionated 15xx who totally knows the game dynamics and does have the adequate game knowledge to judge how bad a certain unit is. He PERSONALLY thinks that there shouldnt be a thing called two handed swordsman inbetween champions and longswordsman.Who cares if some civs dont get champ upgrade and will be basically be stuck with longswords in case they train them? Can you guys not realize how much of importance his personal feelings are?


How about you try to actually refute what I said instead of attacking my person? It's really the lowest form of argumentation, just as the lowest form of evidence is anecdotal. Stop taking your inferiority complexes out on me please.


Your issue with two handed swordsman is certainly based on your recent failures in your games, so called anecdotal evidence, so I dont really understand why you're crying about anecdotal evidence. Additionally, I already refuted it but you obviously have forgotten it in your eager to accuse people of logical fallacies. Two handed swordsman are simply needed because some civs does not have champions and longswordsman are not good enough. No further explanation is needed. After all, the game dynamics are not made to satisfy your muh-fellings.

The worse part about your logical fallacies :((((((( part is that you accuse me of ad hominem, personal attacks, but that would for example be me saying that you are a retard or you simply suck at this game. But I didnt do that. What I did is that I mentioned some relevant information about your person and made some points in accordance to topic. That's not ad hominem.

And if you think that the people of aoczone have an obligation such as dismissing every witty and weird suggestion, then you're wrong.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 am

  14 Feb 2018, 22:42 GMT » futhark1 wrote:
Your issue with two handed swordsman is certainly based on your recent failures in your games, so called anecdotal evidence, so I dont really understand why you're crying about anecdotal evidence. Additionally, I already refuted it but you obviously have forgotten it in your eager accuse people of logical fallacies. Two handed swordsman are simply needed because some civs does not have champions and longswordsman are not good enough. No further explanation is needed. After all, the game dynamics are not made to satisfy your muh-fellings.

The worse part about your logical fallacies :((((((( part is that you accuse me of ad hominem, personal attacks, but that would for example be me saying that you are a retard or you simply suck at this game. But I didnt do that. What I did is that I mentioned some relevant information about your person and made some points in accordance to topic. That's not ad hominem.

And if you think that the people of aoczone have a obligation such as dismissing every witty and weird suggestion, then you're wrong.


"Your issue with two handed swordsman is certainly based on your recent failures in your games" - You really have a solid base for this conclusion. I just pointed out the fact that 2HS is never the best option in ANY situation, it's just an unnecessary step between long swordsman and champion for the civs that actually somewhat rely on champs for their army.

"I dont really understand why you're crying about anecdotal evidence" - I was referring to the other guy but once again your inferiority complex takes the upper hand in assuming it was directed at you

"Additionally, I already refuted it but you obviously have forgotten it in your eager accuse people of logical fallacies" - You didn't even consider the fact that I proposed a buff to long swordsmen to compensate, you just interpreted it as me wanting to remove 2HS with no further action taken to bring the competitiveness of the milita line past m@a up to par.

"the game dynamics are not made to satisfy your muh-fellings" - it seems you think I have developed some personal bond with the units in this game. I'm just calling it as I see it and the way I see it this particular unit needs some help. If that's too much to ask then why even have it in the game? Fact of the matter still is that even if the other guy won a game with 2HS (WOW!!!!) it's still underpowered as hell.

"The worse part about your logical fallacies :((((((( part is that you accuse me of ad hominem, personal attacks, but that would for example be me saying that you are a retard or you simply suck at this game. But I didnt do that. What I did is that I mentioned some relevant information about your person and made some points in accordance to topic. That's not ad hominem" I'm sorry. How could I ever accuse you of this? You are clearly a very nice person who would never stoop to that level.

It seems like the real issue according to you is that I'm trying to start a discussion on this otherwise pretty dead board.

Edit: you also have no regard for the fact that i openly welcomed people to enlighten me on any mechanic related to this unit that I may have missed but all I've seen is "HURR DURR RETARD ALL CIVS DON'T HAVE CHAMPS". So it seems there is actually nothing to redeem this unit after all. Is there?
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  dodageka » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:12 am

First of all, your starting post doesn’t make it clear whether your question is about the whole militia line or whether it is about 2hand swordsmen particularly.
Militia line with exception of few civs (Goths, potentially Malians) only has two purposes: deal with eagles and huskarls and kill trash. For both situations militia line is super strong.

I understand your question that way: why are there 2 imp upgrades and not just go straight from long sword to champion (correct me if wrong). I think the reasons for that have been said before: going to champions straight is to expensive in some situations (defending vs elite eagles), and this allows to balance super late game strength in trash war (mongols with strong hussar for example).
Reasons you don’t see many 2hand swordsman: civs that can go champs will always try to go champs in trash wars, so there are only few civs left where you’d see them. And then games with these civs need to end up in 1v1 trash war that drags out long enough to make it worth it. So it is a niche unit, but it has its moments and removing it would make balancing late game much more difficult.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:34 pm

  15 Feb 2018, 08:12 GMT » dodageka wrote:
First of all, your starting post doesn’t make it clear whether your question is about the whole militia line or whether it is about 2hand swordsmen particularly.
Militia line with exception of few civs (Goths, potentially Malians) only has two purposes: deal with eagles and huskarls and kill trash. For both situations militia line is super strong.

I understand your question that way: why are there 2 imp upgrades and not just go straight from long sword to champion (correct me if wrong). I think the reasons for that have been said before: going to champions straight is to expensive in some situations (defending vs elite eagles), and this allows to balance super late game strength in trash war (mongols with strong hussar for example).
Reasons you don’t see many 2hand swordsman: civs that can go champs will always try to go champs in trash wars, so there are only few civs left where you’d see them. And then games with these civs need to end up in 1v1 trash war that drags out long enough to make it worth it. So it is a niche unit, but it has its moments and removing it would make balancing late game much more difficult.

No I understand perfectly well that much like cavalier the 2HS is to give civs who lack the highest upgrade something to compensate. Unlike cavalier however, 2HS is trash that costs gold. So what I'm trying to say is even though I understand why it's in the game I don't understand why it's so weak.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  LegendOfSocks » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:14 pm

your right, we should get rid of two handed swordsman. Also should get rid of man at arms and longswords too so can just have one tech from militia to champs
<[TyRanT]_DauT_> i dont know how to instal this s***
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:28 pm

  15 Feb 2018, 13:14 GMT » LegendOfSocks wrote:
your right, we should get rid of two handed swordsman. Also should get rid of man at arms and longswords too so can just have one tech from militia to champs


This isn't in the least bit constructive. Why are you actively trying to misinterpret what I'm saying?
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