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Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  _Melkor » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:43 pm

Yeah this unit is so bad they should delete it from the game.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:51 pm

  15 Feb 2018, 14:43 GMT » _Melkor wrote:
Yeah this unit is so bad they should delete it from the game.


I think at least in its current state it doesn't serve much of a purpose.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  dodageka » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:57 pm

  15 Feb 2018, 15:51 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
  15 Feb 2018, 14:43 GMT » _Melkor wrote:
Yeah this unit is so bad they should delete it from the game.


I think at least in its current state it doesn't serve much of a purpose.


But what will you do about it? If you buff 2h swordsmen you need to buff champs as well, otherwise the difference becomes to small. And that would cause massive balance changes.

And yes, the 2h swordsmen serve a purpose. They kill eagles and trash, and that pretty damn well
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  IvIaximus » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:39 pm

Why so salty. He is right actually. 2HS is just waste. It is unnecessary piece in your advance to champion. There are only four (5 in wk?) units that have 2 level ups in imp. While cavalier, capped rams and siege onagers are all useful especially for civs that lack ability to up further, 2HS is just shit. Besides champ upgrade is really cheap unlike pala/ram/SO where expensive upgrade justify use of inferior unit for a while.
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---
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[19:15]<+[ByT]Poxo> sorry, **** up start and cat starting throwing up in the table
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:48 pm

  15 Feb 2018, 17:57 GMT » dodageka wrote:
  15 Feb 2018, 15:51 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
  15 Feb 2018, 14:43 GMT » _Melkor wrote:
Yeah this unit is so bad they should delete it from the game.


I think at least in its current state it doesn't serve much of a purpose.


But what will you do about it? If you buff 2h swordsmen you need to buff champs as well, otherwise the difference becomes to small. And that would cause massive balance changes.

And yes, the 2h swordsmen serve a purpose. They kill eagles and trash, and that pretty damn well


In my original post I proposed a buff to long swordsmen to compensate the removal of 2HS. This is just my opinion and I'm no balance expert. I just think something needs to be done because this unit might be the least seen basic unit in the game after siege tower.

Even if they do kill trash easily almost every gold unit in imp kills them too effeciently for that to matter since you have to invest gold in 2HS.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:51 pm

  15 Feb 2018, 18:39 GMT » IvIaximus wrote:
Why so salty. .


I think the playerbase of this game is just very set in its ways and resistant to change. Look how long it took for most people to accept the changes in the new expansions.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  Tocaraca » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 am

  15 Feb 2018, 12:34 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
2HS is trash that costs gold. So what I'm trying to say is even though I understand why it's in the game I don't understand why it's so weak.


2HS are not trash that costs gold.

They beat all other trash units

They beat eagles

They trade well vs huskarls

If you think about it, the comparison between Cavalier and Paladin in terms of strength is EXACTLY like the comparison between Two-Handed Swordsman and Champion. The reason 2HS are so weak compared to Cavalier is the same reason Champions are so weak compared to Paladins; the swordsman line fills a niche, the knight line is general-purpose in a lot of aspects.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  SteamKing » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:18 am

  16 Feb 2018, 03:08 GMT » Tocaraca wrote:
  15 Feb 2018, 12:34 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
2HS is trash that costs gold. So what I'm trying to say is even though I understand why it's in the game I don't understand why it's so weak.


2HS are not trash that costs gold.

They beat all other trash units

They beat eagles

They trade well vs huskarls

If you think about it, the comparison between Cavalier and Paladin in terms of strength is EXACTLY like the comparison between Two-Handed Swordsman and Champion. The reason 2HS are so weak compared to Cavalier is the same reason Champions are so weak compared to Paladins; the swordsman line fills a niche, the knight line is general-purpose in a lot of aspects.


Once again you are right in theory. In practice however it's awful to invest your limited stockpile of gold into 2HS. 2HS doesn't even do that well vs halbs if you consider the resources invested in the respective units. The only viable scenario to invest in 2HS I guess would be vs eagles but even then every meso civ has a unit that hard counters 2HS. If you go 2HS vs goths you are just plain stupid since they have to invest less resources into the upgrade of the unit in question.

Edit: 2HS with their 0.9 MS also have absolutely no hope of catching up with eagles (or hussar for that matter) which is a major disadvantage on every map that's even semi-open.

Edit #2: That you even dare compare 2HS to cavalier shows what little knowledge you have in terms of the strength of the different units in this game. FU cavalier is something which can very successfully make up the core of your army in most situations. Paladin upgrade is actually quite rare and it's probably the one unit which sets the standard for what makes up a cost efficient unit in this game.
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  Tocaraca » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:18 am

  16 Feb 2018, 04:01 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
2HS doesn't even do that well vs halbs if you consider the resources invested in the respective units.


You overvalue gold.

2HS destroy halbs. Even if they're not gold efficient when comparing market buying prices, they're still incredibly effective.

However, I agree people would almost never go 2HS to counter trash, if they didn't have the Champion to upgrade to. But that isn't a balance concern. I don't understand why it would be. That's not the only use of the swordsman line.

  16 Feb 2018, 04:01 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
The only viable scenario to invest in 2HS I guess would be vs eagles but even then every meso civ has a unit that hard counters 2HS.


Every meso civ has a unit that hard counters Champions too, I guess that makes Champions not viable as well? And all Paladin civs have a unit that hard counter Halberdiers too, I guess that makes Halberdiers not viable too?

  16 Feb 2018, 04:01 GMT » SteamKing wrote:
If you go 2HS vs goths you are just plain stupid since they have to invest less resources into the upgrade of the unit in question.


Mayans and some other civs on open maps have to go for 2HS against Goths Elite Huskarls. Goths obviously have a big advantage, but 2HS is the best that Mayans can do, and if the Mayans player already has a big advantage over the Goths player, the Mayans player has to put 2HS in front of their plumes to stop their army from getting overrun by a much smaller mass of Elite Huskarls (otherwise the Goths player could stage a comeback simply by hanging on for a while and getting some husks).
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Re: Two-Handed Swordsman Discussion

Postby  Tocaraca » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:24 am

That you even dare compare 2HS to cavalier shows what little knowledge you have in terms of the strength of the different units in this game.


No you misunderstand. I compare the Two-Handed Swordsman's relative strength to the Champion to the Cavalier's relative strength to the Paladin.

I'm saying the comparison between the 2HS and the Cavalier is the same as the comparison to the Champion and the Paladin. Not exactly the same but similar

Also no need to tell me that I have "little knowledge," it makes your argument weaker as you're resorting to attacking me rather than just addressing the point directly.
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