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Discussion of balance aspects.

Discussion related to Random Map games
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  SouFire » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:11 pm

I think spring refers to burmeses infantry with +1 attack, free forge for magyars or armor like the malians, extra resources for ethiopians that basically its a free upgrade, easier to do with indians due the food saved from villagers, the time saved from malays that suits that strategy and well i think that could be the reason.
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  TerminatorIV » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:45 pm

Patch 5.7 is now final at SteamDB, seems like it is really close to balance updates. I' m really curious what it brings. Personally I still enjoy the new M@A play. But seeing people just booming to Camel Archers or Arambai annoys me a lot.
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  pete26196 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:55 am

Patch released to beta on HD containing the following changes:

Condottiero now have unique armor class (only resisting bonus damage from gunpowder units, not from other anti-infantry attacks)
Condottiero -1 pierce armor (from 1 to 0)
Condottiero -1 attack (from 10 to 9)
Elite Battle Elephant cost increased from 800f 500g to 1200f 900g
Elite Battle Elephant research time increased from 80s to 100s
Malay Battle elephants 30% cheaper (rather than 25%)
Elite Karambit -1 attack (from 8 to 7)
(Elite) Battle Elephant blast radius -0.1 (from 0.5 to 0.4)
(Elite) Camel Archer -5 HP (from 60/65 to 55/60 without Bloodlines)
(Elite) Camel Archers -2 armor vs Camels (from 2 to 0)
(Elite) Camel Archers -2 armor vs anti-cavalry archer attacks (from 2 to 0)
(Elite) Camel Archers -2 attack vs Rams (from 2 to 0)
Ethiopians lose the free Halberdier upgrade
Howdah cost +200f (from 200f 300w to 400f 300w) - for those that don't know that's the Burmese Castle age UT (Battle ele's get +1/+2 armour)
Howdah effect reduced from +1/+2 armor to +1/+1 armor
Arquebus increases projectile speed of Bombard Cannons and Bombard towers by +0.2 (from 0 to 0.2, used to be 0.5 prior to patch 5.2)
Organ Gun +1 spread damage (from 1 to 2)
(Elite) Arambai -0.05 speed (from 1.35 to 1.3)
(Elite) Arambai -1 attack
Elite Arambai -2 armor vs anti-cavalry archer attacks (from 2 to 0)
Slavs farm bonus now properly works after researching Wheelbarrow and Hand Cart
Chatras effect increased from +30 HP to +50 HP - reference that's the Vietnamese Castle age UT affecting Battle ele's
Eagle Warrior training time +3s (from 32s to 35s)
Eagle Warrior -0.05 speed (from 1.2 to 1.15)
Anti-camel bonus increased for all anti-cavalry units (except camels)
Malians lose free Gold Shaft Mining

Full patch notes are here if you wish to read, however only the balance changes listed above likely will be relevant to those here. http://steamcommunity.com/app/221380/di ... 768228345/

I'd assume these will be ported to WK when they go live. Initial thoughts on these changes?

EDIT: Some unlisted things or more in-depth changes not listed in the change log, credit to Saint_Michaels_ on reddit for posting.

Cartography now automatically researches after a Market is created & is no longer a requirement for Caravans.
"Anti-camel bonus increased for all anti-cavalry units (except camels)" - Here are the amounts.

Spearmen now do +12 damage against Camels instead of +9

Pikemen now do +18 damage against Camels instead of +16

Halberdiers now do +26(!) damage against Camels instead of +17

Eagle Warrior & Elite Eagle Warrior +1 Damage against Camels (+2, +3). Eagle Scouts unchanged

Elite Genoese Crossbowmen do +6 damage against Camels instead of +5. Normal Genoese Unchanged.

(Elite) Kamayuks do (+10) +6 damage against Camels instead of (+6) +4

Chieftains for the Vikings now makes Infantry do +4 damage to Camels instead of +2

As listed, Camels bonus damage against other Camels are unchanged. Towers and the Town Center are also unchanged and still only do +1 damage to Camels.

For whatever reason, Castle Age Eagle Scouts still train at 32 Seconds. The nerf only applies to Eagle Warriors

Not related to this update, but still bothers the hell out of me that I want to point out. Imperial Camels train in 20 Seconds instead of 22 Seconds. Because reasons.

Also the Slav farm fix may not be fully solving the hard cap limit reached with Hand Cart, testing required. (?)
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  SouFire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:29 am

The problem with the imperial camel should be fixed now, but i think 18 to 27 was a little exaggerated.

For the camel archer i think it wasn't not enough, but we have to check if it was properly implemented and test every single ranged unit on foot vs them :lol.

The karambit issue will not be affected by the changes it is still having the same attack as a LC.

Condo now should die easily vs ranged units or tcs.

Ethiopians losing halb free upgrade is a big nerf, maybe reducing at 50% the upgrade would help them, otherwise i don't think anyone would pick them often.
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  Nicov » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:27 am

I'm pretty bored hence i'll leave my thoughts here :mrgreen:

Condottiero now have unique armor class (only resisting bonus damage from gunpowder units, not from other anti-infantry attacks)
Condottiero -1 pierce armor (from 1 to 0)
Condottiero -1 attack (from 10 to 9)


I like the first change, not the other two. I don't agree with the -1 attack -1 pierce armor. A better nerf would have been needing a "Condottiero" upgrade in order to create them (so you can't spam them from 5 barracks right away as soon as you reach imperial)

Elite Battle Elephant cost increased from 800f 500g to 1200f 900g
Elite Battle Elephant research time increased from 80s to 100s
Malay Battle elephants 30% cheaper (rather than 25%)
(Elite) Battle Elephant blast radius -0.1 (from 0.5 to 0.4)


The elite battle elephants is still a broken unit. The upgrade price is still very low. They are way stronger than paladins (which require not only paladin upgrade but also cavalier one). I'd put something like 1450F 1100g (just slighty cheaper than elite war elephants).
Also cav+paladin upgrades take longer to be done than EBE one.
And the blast radius should be highly reduced for battle elephants. The same for elite.

Elite Karambit -1 attack (from 8 to 7)

I don't think this is the correct way for nerfing this unit. I'd rather see creation time increased a bit. And maybe something like 0.75population a karambit. 0.5 is too much.

(Elite) Camel Archer -5 HP (from 60/65 to 55/60 without Bloodlines)
(Elite) Camel Archers -2 armor vs Camels (from 2 to 0)
(Elite) Camel Archers -2 armor vs anti-cavalry archer attacks (from 2 to 0)
(Elite) Camel Archers -2 attack vs Rams (from 2 to 0)


Changes look good. I'd like to see Camel archer with 6 attack, just like mangudai. But maybe it's just a very personal opinion.

Ethiopians lose the free Halberdier upgrade

This was necessary. But I think they still need to adjust the free resources income. 50f 50g in feudal, 100-100 in castle age, 150-150 in imp.

Howdah cost +200f (from 200f 300w to 400f 300w) - for those that don't know that's the Burmese Castle age UT (Battle ele's get +1/+2 armour)
Howdah effect reduced from +1/+2 armor to +1/+1 armor


Howdah should cost food and gold, not wood.

Arquebus increases projectile speed of Bombard Cannons and Bombard towers by +0.2 (from 0 to 0.2, used to be 0.5 prior to patch 5.2)

No opinion. Need to figure it out by playing.

Organ Gun +1 spread damage (from 1 to 2)

No opinion. Need to figure it out by playing.

(Elite) Arambai -0.05 speed (from 1.35 to 1.3)
(Elite) Arambai -1 attack
Elite Arambai -2 armor vs anti-cavalry archer attacks (from 2 to 0)


Kind of useless changes. They are still OP like hell. The 18 attack is WAY too high. And the 2secs rate of fire is too low. I'd go for 2,5s or even 3 (like conqs). Also, they should cost food (not wood) and gold

Slavs farm bonus now properly works after researching Wheelbarrow and Hand Cart

I've been waiting for this for too long :lol: But could someone explain me why this monk civ does not have faith and heresy? It's awful vs monk civs.

Chatras effect increased from +30 HP to +50 HP - reference that's the Vietnamese Castle age UT affecting Battle ele's

It's a good change. But seriously, you can get +50hp just for 250f 250g? :?

Eagle Warrior training time +3s (from 32s to 35s)
Eagle Warrior -0.05 speed (from 1.2 to 1.15)


Agree.

Malians lose free Gold Shaft Mining

Agree. But i'd also change the wood cost bonus from -15% to 10%.

Cartography now automatically researches after a Market is created & is no longer a requirement for Caravans.

Good.

"Anti-camel bonus increased for all anti-cavalry units (except camels)" - Here are the amounts.
Spearmen now do +12 damage against Camels instead of +9
Pikemen now do +18 damage against Camels instead of +16
Halberdiers now do +26(!) damage against Camels instead of +17


+26 is too much :lol:

Eagle Warrior & Elite Eagle Warrior +1 Damage against Camels (+2, +3). Eagle Scouts unchanged

No opinion.

Elite Genoese Crossbowmen do +6 damage against Camels instead of +5. Normal Genoese Unchanged.

They already kill camels like flies. Bad change.

(Elite) Kamayuks do (+10) +6 damage against Camels instead of (+6) +4

?

Chieftains for the Vikings now makes Infantry do +4 damage to Camels instead of +2

Too much...

----

There are still many things to fix. But its a good start.

Anyone knows how to update WK?
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  pete26196 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:32 am

This is just the patch notes for HD, it's only gone into open beta now on steam.

I'm not sure if Jineapple is waiting for the patch to go officially live before updating WK, more things might change before this happens.

Also Kamayuk = Inca UU for reference.
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  Hearttt » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:29 am

It's certainly a bad nerf for karambits. Malay are already a very weak castle age civ, diminishing their imperial age potential doesn't really make sense unless this change is aimed at lower level games where people seem to freak out about them being OP. I'd still like to see eagles' bonus against cavalry reduced a little, I think that's the main issue with them currently as they don't really have a cost efficient counter at this point.
I don't like the camel nerf. Even though it will be irrelevant most games as you usually won't fight straight up against halbs, it is nerfing a unit that is already inferior (except for indians) when it comes to team games. I think if the aim was to make indians worse, there are better ways to go on about it, for example only giving their camels +1 pierce armor instead of +1/+1.

Rest of the changes seem good, but I still see arambais being OP as long as they are paired with one or two mangonels. Arambai need to cost food, in my eyes the reason they are OP right now is because of how easily you can boom while attacking/defending with them, they don't even require many upgrades so dropping TCs and producing vills is super easy without sacrificing army count. Camel archers still have their insane hit and run potential but they should melt to most units now, will be interesting to see how the changes to them play out.
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  Jineapple » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:03 am

You can test these changes on WK simply by running the installer again while on the beta in steam. It will just be unrated because it's a different version. I will put out an installer update for rated play when it comes out of the beta.
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  klavskisLV » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 am

Made a video on this as well, some changes really nice, some i don't really understand, welp, gonna be fun trying this in rated games.
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Re: Discussion of balance aspects.

Postby  Laskerf » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:33 am

So saracen mamelukes and heavy camels now take more bonus damage from all anti cavalry in the game? Were they too op? :evil:

Also I don't think imperial camel is THAT overpowered, if indians had no camels and paladins instead they would be even stronger, the real reason they seem so strong is indian economy imo.
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